The Bible is very clear in revealing when the rapture will occur in conjunction with the Great Tribulation. That evidence is overwhelming for a post-trib rapture. Only some of the proof for this has thus been cited. Before I give more, I must comment on what Jason wrote.
Jason's Flawed Rebuttal
● Jason cited Numbers 29:1 and Lev. 23:24,25 for proof of The Feast of Trumpets. He believes that Feast to be the last trumpet, mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:52, and hence, the rapture. It is impossible for Jason to tie 1 Cor. 15:52 to those passages. He only cites them in a futile attempt to preserve the pre-trib theory from the destructive conclusion which comes by a comparison of 1 Cor. 15:51,52 to Rev. 11:15 and Rev. 10:7. (The truth is: the last trumpet occurs when the seventh trumpet is blown by an angel in heaven, not some unbelieving Jew on earth.)
● Jason wrote:
Since this is my last response, I will again address every argument you made quite easily, since none of them are new to me.
NOTE: Jason didn’t address every argument or even mention Mark 13:24-27; Lk. 14:14 or the shameful 1988 false prophecy made by pre-trib rapture teachers. (Try to find his answers, in our debate, if you will.)
● Jason also wrote:
You speak of the signs of the sun, moon, and stars falling, but you don’t seem to have any idea of what that Biblically symbolic language is talking about. It’s Satan being cast out of heaven, and that must happen at the start of the tribulation.
Jason believes the change in the sun, moon and stars occurs when Satan is cast out of heaven. That is clearly contrary to Scripture because Satan is cast out of heaven at Rev. 12:7-9, but before that happens the change in the sun, moon and stars occurs (Rev. 8:12). Again, his answer is wrong based on clear Biblical evidence.
● Furthermore, after Rev. 12:7-9 the antichrist appears and the mark of the beast is issued. Hence, like all pre-trib rapture people, Jason thinks the last generation of Christians will not face the antichrist and the mark of the beast. (On several occasions it has already been proven this view is false.)
● Jason stated I said of him that he gave no evidence for the pre-trib. What I actually wrote was he ...
... provided no clear specific Scripture/s (and/or logic) for a pre-trib rapture ....
My statement is accurate. What he gave might be called evidence by him, but it is not clear Scriptures/logic for his doctrine. His writing about things or even citing Scripture is not necessarily evidence for a pre-trib rapture and when examined carefully they clearly are not.
● Jason also wrote:
Likewise, I believe that the “first resurrection” takes place over time, and includes Jesus, the pretribulation rapture, the resurrection of the two witnesses, and those at the end of the tribulation who had been martyrs for refusing the mark of the beast.
NOTE: Jason’s view of the first resurrection is skewed to try to protect the pre-trib theory from the force of Rev. 20:4-6. The first resurrection (Rev. 20:4-6) or the resurrection of the righteous (Lk. 14:14) is the rapture. Such occurs at the seventh trumpet mentioned in Rev. 11:15.
There will only be a resurrection for the righteous and one for the wicked (John 5:29; Acts 24:15). Again, the only resurrection for the righteous will be at the rapture, which is when the righteous get their incorruptible and immortal body (1 Cor. 15:51-54). This is the resurrection we are debating. Jason is confusing the issue.
Contrary to what some teach, Jesus’ resurrection from the grave is not part of the first resurrection. The Lord already received his immortal resurrected body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39) long ago while we still await the point of the rapture. What we are debating occurs in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor. 15:52), not over thousands of years, like Jason teaches.
The rapture won’t occur until Christians of the last generation are first martyred for refusing the mark of the beast (Rev. 20:4-6).
The truth is: Jason has still not provided clear Biblical proof for a pre-trib rapture for our text debate, even after I mentioned this in my first response. Instead, he has spent a lot of time trying to justify not giving his best arguments here and now for careful analysis. By merely citing links, he complicates and confuses this debate. He seems to be treating this like an email exchange when it isn’t.
Initially, he openly admitted his own refusal to abide by our debate rules so he could remain free! His remaining free has resulted with him writing about non-related things, much unjust name calling and flawed evidence for a pre-trib rapture.
I have learned from experience, oftentimes when people can’t answer, get exposed and/or refuted with Scripture they often resort to name calling. Jason is no exception to this.
His name calling came in various forms. He stated unless you can see a pre-trib rapture taught in Scripture you are in darkness, besides indirectly referring to me as a swine, a heretic and the like. It has been a shocking and insulting read for me.
● Jason also thinks I’m an unbeliever as are all others who reject the pre-trib rapture. He wrote:
I think God did an excellent job of concealing the doctrine of the pre tribulation rapture from unbelievers who are not worthy, as the Bible says he would do...
He also used Heb. 10:26,27 to indict me of being an enemy of God. Moreover, he thinks I need the blood of Christ to heal me of my errors. Imagine that!
Dear fellow post-trib followers of Jesus, do not be alarmed or unsettled by his barbaric assessment. It is glaringly false. Jason is both wrong about this doctrine and especially elevating it to a salvation issue. No Scriptures can be correctly used to prove a belief in the pre-trib rapture is a salvation issue. (To be an unbeliever, heretic, swine and/or enemy of God, as he calls me, is to lack salvation of the soul.) One is a Christian if he is following Jesus (Jn. 10:27) or as stated in Lk. 8:21 if he hears God’s word and puts it into practice. You can believe in no rapture at all and still be a Christian.
Remember, as I stated in my first response if Jason provides anything it will be very weak at best. His next response back proved that to be true. Sort through all the name calling and look for his clear evidence for a rapture that will occur before the Great Tribulation, if you will. You will be surprised how lacking it is.
More POST Trib Evidence
Another very important passage for the post-trib is 2 Thess. 2:1-12. By focusing in upon select verses it becomes extremely clear that the rapture will occur after the Christians face the antichrist. That is contrary to the pre-trib rapture theory. Dear reader, ponder that passage from your own Bible without any pre-conceived ideas or commentary and believe what it says.
The subject of that passage is stated in verse 1 to be the Christians gathered to the Lord Jesus (rapture). That will not happen until the events of v. 3 are accomplished:
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. (2 Th 2:1-3)
Verse 3 cites the two conditions which must predate the rise of antichrist: (1) the rebellion (or apostasy) occurs and (2) the man of lawlessness (another name for the antichrist) is revealed. It seems that those verses are just too clear to miss, but somehow some do. Christians of the last generation will face the antichrist before the gathering to the Lord (rapture). Do not be deceived.
Furthermore, in 2 Thess. 2:4 Paul stated the temple will exist in the days of the antichrist. As of January 2009 that temple does not exist, but must be rebuilt, and then the antichrist will proclaim himself to be God from there. Therefore, the rapture cannot happen today!
Other verses, as already cited, show the rapture will occur at the seventh trumpet mentioned in Rev. 11:15. That is also the last trumpet Paul referred to (1 Cor. 15:52) as well as a mystery (1 Cor. 15:51 cf. Rev. 10:7). The clear evidence is overwhelming for a post-trib rapture, yet massively missing for a pre-trib rapture.
Hence, Christians of the last generation who are waiting to be raptured out of here before the Great Tribulation and the revealing of antichrist are in for a painful awakening that could be destructive for some.
As powerful as the prayers of the righteous are now (James 5:16), at that point in time, to pray for deliverance from the antichrist will be futile. The antichrist will war against the saints and conquer them:
He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. (Rev 13:7)
Christians alive, especially then, will have to prepare themselves for suffering and death. The adverse effects of the saints yielding to the pressure of that day and taking the mark of the beast are shown here:
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. (Rev 14:9-12)
The saints will still be here then! Did you notice that? They will especially need patient endurance and what is mentioned below to be an overcomer:
They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. (Rev 12:11)
I have now believed in the post-trib rapture for approximately 20 years. There is a sweet peace knowing the truth, even if it is about something like this. It is similar to knowing the disturbing truth that most people, in the end, will go to hell (Mt. 7:13,14). Knowing the truth is always beneficial.
Hopefully, our interchange will help many. May God bless Jason and all who read these exchanges. (Remember Heb. 3:14.)
[The readers should know that I asked Jason if he wanted to do a debate conclusion too, but he has declined.]
For the complete debate click Jason Hommel vs. Dan Corner Rapture Debate.
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